podcast

10. Childhood and Parenting

 

November 18, 2024

 

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Childhood and Parenting


This episode showcases and details the anthropological study of parenting, and too, the anthropology of childhood and human development. Listeners will learn about childhood psychology, effects of parental relationships, and how these influences affect one’s life.

Sources: 

Transcript:

Anna: Hello friends, and welcome back to Anthro.mp3. We are students from UMass who love anthropology. Anthro hub is a website we help run that’s full of all things Anthro. Make sure to check it out, to look at some incredible blog posts and creative works made by students from our school and others. My name is Anna, and I’ll be one of your hosts for today’s episode. I’ll also be joined by…

Lily: Lily! Hi. I’m happy to be here.

Anna: Happy to have you Lily. So, today we’re talking about the anthropological study of parenting, and we’re also discussing the anthropology of childhood and Human Development. In particular, the archeology of childhood and parenting is a relatively new subject in the lifespan of the discipline. Only since the new millennium have researchers become widely interested in the remains of children, with some saying that for a long time, the room of archeology that contains children was sealed before then, what’s interesting about the discrepancy between the study of childhood and the study of parenthood is that at many times and places in our collective history, child rearing has been a less individual, individualistic endeavor than it is today. There’s a quote from renowned anthropologist named Barry Bogan, from his paper “Evolutionary Hypotheses for Human Childhood”, where he says that childhood *quote* “Allows a woman to give birth to new offspring and provide care for existing, dependent young. Understanding the nature of childhood helps to explain why humans have lengthy development and low fertility, but greater reproductive success than any other species.” So in short, understanding childhood and parenting is a really key part of understanding humans as a whole.

Lily: Yeah – and you said this is a new discipline?

Anna: The archaeology of childhood in particular. I think before then, most focus on the study of humans’ remains was on older people. There, of course, is like in the historical record – I know that when I took North American archeology, we talked a little bit about the graves of children and how they showed, like even if children were born with disabilities in some places, like – they were still cared for in the community, which showed like, community values. But the like – focusing on childhood as a discipline within archeology is a relatively new field.

Lily: That’s awesome, because as someone who studies psychology, child development is just such a big field, and we focus, like almost all of our research, on the development of young; and I feel like psychology and anthropology are so similar. So I think studying parenting is gonna be really cool.

Anna: I think so too. And I think it’s kind of weird that, like, not weird, but a little bit crazy that it’s taken, it took so long, but I think it’s also that there’s maybe less graves. There’s less archeological record of child graves. For you know, people hopefully live beyond that, but in a lot of human history they didn’t. So the history of like current child parent relationships and childhood and motherhood in particular, began when we started walking upright about 200,000 years ago; and there’s a hypothesis – this is called the obstetrical dilemma, so that when we became bipedal. So actually humans became bipedal. Our ancestors became bipedal 6 million years ago. But the theory is that about 200 years ago, we started eating meat, and our brains grew, and before then, we were walking upright, but with brains that could easily come out of the birth canal. But now, and in 200,000 years ago, when our brains began to develop, the birth canal, decreased in width when, as we were bipedal and newborns evolved to have smaller, softer skulls, and consequently, human babies were born less developed than our primate relatives; and as a result, it became vitally important to the survival of offspring for there to be intensive childhood rearing, because they couldn’t survive just like when they were being born. So babies are entirely dependent on their parents due to evolutionary adaptations, and that fact defines parent childhood relationships.

Lily: Wow… So bipedal –  do you mean, like, two feet walking?

Anna: Yeah, sorry.

Lily: Oh, it’s awesome.

Anna: And that’s just one theory – that’s been kind of the major theory about, you know, like childhood and like newborn babies, like why they’re what’s called altricial. So there’s two different types of births in, like the animal kingdom, and one is altricial, which means not able to move on their own after birth, and so humans fall distinctly into this category, and the other is precocious. So that’s when offspring are able to move independently shortly after birth. And so animals like, you know horses – horses within an hour of being born can, like, stand and walk and sometimes run, whereas humans, it takes us months and months and months to be able to, like, feed ourselves and walk in and run, especially that takes a really long time. So humans are almost as altrucial as it gets, so to speak. So other than being altricial, there’s another unique aspect of human birth that is different from other mammals is… that is, we are born face down and not face up.

Lily: Yeah, and it’s very interesting, because a lot of other mammals are born face up, and this is for the mother to be able to catch their young when they come out, and they can give birth basically by themselves. But with humans, humans are now born face down. So this culture of midwifery is really important, because they need assistance in giving birth, and that is a very common culture in every part of humanity. It’s been around for a long time, and it’s actually funny, because I was born face up, and that was a complication where it was kind of stressful that my mother told me about, because babies are usually not supposed to be born face up. So it’s interesting how there’s very unique human characteristics to birth that is different from even our closest ancestors.

Anna: Yeah! Yeah, yeah. There’s even evidence of midwifery present in the archeological record as far back as the Paleolithic era and that is, like you said, something that still exists today, and I think there’s been a real resurgence of midwifery recently. I think for a long time, we’ve like very much medicalized the birthing process, where, like in America at least, and like in the West in general, is like you’re born in a hospital, and if you’re not born in a hospital, then it’s considered unsafe and unclean, but in reality, like having… – birthing, home births and having like a midwife instead of a doctor or somebody who’s much closer to you that you know, is much more common in most of human history than it is today.

Lily: Yeah, even I think the US has one of the lower percentages of home births than a lot of other countries, because we are just more… – that’s just more our culture. We just, we believe that we need to be in a hospital, yeah. But we’ve been giving birth for years and centuries, and so many people have done it so many different ways.

Anna: Yeah, yeah. I mean, and even I know now in the US, it’s very common to like schedule your birth, or even especially if you’re going to C section,  like induced labor – and I think that speaks a lot to like American culture, which we’ll get into later. But there’s an opposing theory to the obstetrical dilemma that has been recently challenged by Holly Dunsworth, who’s an anthropological researcher at the University of Rhode Island, and it is called the egg hypothesis, which is short for the energetics of gestation and fetal growth. And she posits that the growth of human brains in utero is not constricted by the narrowing of the birth canal, but rather by the metabolic limits of the mother during gestation or during pregnancy. And if fetal brains developed any more than they do, they would require more energy to support than the mother can provide, which explains why the brain continues to develop after birth. And so that’s really interesting, that there’s, like, two opposing theories, and there’s evidence for both. And I think it’s kind of like –  that is more coming into the like anthropological mainstream, but a lot of people still, you know, take the obstetrical dilemma as like the prevalent theory, but there’s two now, and there’s more, but those are the more prominent ones. And there’s also another hypothesis that was developed by an anthropologist called Sarah Blaffer Herdy, called the grandmothering hypothesis, which basically is meant to explain why humans This is almost unique to humans as a species. Not many other animals live so much of their lives beyond menopause, in particular for women. So that means that older matriarchs have a big place within our culture and within our communities, and this is true of other animals, like whales and elephants, chimps and gorillas, but not all mammals. And so when you’re a younger mother, you’re still fertile and able to breastfeed, and you’re also still able to hunt and gather and do the things that are necessary for not only your survival and your offspring’s survival, but also the well being of the community. But then there’s because people are living beyond menopause and also beyond when they’re useful in like the hunter gathering set – hunter gatherer setting, you’re creating work within your social network that older people can’t do, and so older people are then able to help take care of babies once they are no longer breastfeeding. And so that is like an explanation of the evolution of old age of humans – like, why we don’t just like die after we reproduce and parenting is a like explanation for that, which I thought was so cool.

Lily: This idea that grandmothers and grandparents are raising children, it reminds me of this idea of it takes a village to raise a child. And it’s interesting, because in America, there’s this idea that the nuclear family is the most successful, and that usually includes a mother, a father and their children, but this is not a very common practice in a lot of other cultures, and it’s very common for grandmothers, grandfathers, aunts, uncles, friends, to be involved in raising the young, and it’s a lot more community based. And I think that also goes back to American culture, which is very individualistic, and that can go into cultural anthropology, and how that affects our biology, how that affects development. And it’s very interesting, because it’s seen a lot that multiple caregivers is very beneficial for raising young.

Anna: Yeah that is really interesting. And I think to bring it back to evolution, there’s a lot of evidence in the archeological record, again, that in early hunter gatherer groups, early groups of Homo sapiens were relatively small, about 150 people, and that allowed for close relationships between community members. And so that meant that child rearing, and so parenting, was not a close relationship limited to parents and their direct offspring. Rather, they practice what is called Aloe parenting, which is defined as care where adults other than the child’s progenitors, participate, usually close relatives. But in a lot of cases, it could be like family members, neighbors, anything like that, and other group members were omnipresent in a child’s life, and the child had the opportunity to seek interaction with adult other than their parents, which, as you said, is very beneficial in a lot of ways. This is still common in many places today, and there’s a lot of – yeah, like multi generational homes, but in the US, that’s like stone, not the practice. Like I grew up – my grandparents lived like a town over, but I grew up, it’s just my parents and me and my brother in our house, even though, like, they it was not that, like, hard for them to come, to live. And it would even make more sense, like, it makes more sense, I think financially, it makes more sense in terms of, like, caregiving. Like, my grandmother babysat me a lot, but she didn’t live there, so she would have to drive. And so it like, yeah, it creates, it creates issues. And like, why are we so dependent on, like, living like, why do we want to live so isolated from each other when it makes everything so much harder?

Lily: And this also leads into, like, later stage parenting, where now we’re graduating college, and there’s this pressure to leave the family nest and go live on your own and be an individual. But is that financially smart? Is that smart for your community or your social well being? That’s, that’s controversial. People don’t really know what. There’s this idea that you have to be independent and leave your parents, but there’s also this idea that you should stay with your parents until you have your own offspring, and maybe you don’t leave your parents and you stay a family unit. This brings us to a question of parenting, and this idea of, do we leave as young? Do we let our kids kind of go off into the world and experience independence and grow, or are you meant to stay with your kinship, your family and your family unit. And there’s so much nuance in parenting when it comes to styles, when it comes to beliefs, biology, any different style, like, if you think about parenting, it comes in a lot of forms, where it could be adoption or surrogacy or non nuclear families with same sex couples, and there’s like IVF… there’s so many different nuances in parenting, and when looking at it on a global scale, parenting in the US looks very different from other places. For example, like, surrogacy is something that is becoming a lot more popular because there are some fertility issues, or some people just are not able to have children. So that’s a very common thing, but in some countries, surrogacy is illegal, and there’s also different practices about parenting multi-countries. So, some parents will leave the country of their children to go work and support their family, and then you have this international parenting style that they’re dealing with two different countries, and they’re parenting via two countries. So, I think it’s interesting to look at the different styles of parenting, how culture… the global stage and everything affects everything. And that kind of leads us into like, this idea of, like, babysitting, which is very interesting because I remember reading on it where Babysitting is not a very common practice among a lot of different cultures. I don’t know if you want to touch on that?

Anna: Yeah, especially paid babysitting. I read an article from the nation which was about the development of what’s called the ‘care economy’. So that includes, like, sectors like babysitting and nannying and preschool and everything like that. Basically, it’s when you pay other people to take care of your children and those people, it’s kind of like a form of alloparenting, but it’s mediated by, like, the market and by capitalism, and so those relationships become commodified. And that’s a really interesting and, I think, like, kind of untapped, like, subject of anthropological research, because it’s a relatively new thing. But yeah, so the author of that article attributed to the acceleration of capitalism, the development of care economy, which has come with longer working hours and fewer close community relationships, so parents no longer have the time to care for their children because they have to work long hours in order to support them, especially in the US, where there’s no legal minimum amount of maternity leave that employers are obligated to provide so women are expected to go back to work almost immediately after, um, giving birth, in some instances, which is like, traumatizing, obviously, like you’re in physical pain, you’re in mental anguish a lot of the time. Postpartum Depression is a really big issue. But then you also have to figure out, what are you going to do with your newborn child if you have to go to work and maybe you’re a single parent or you don’t have the community support for somebody to take care of you, so you have to hire somebody to take care of your child, and especially for low income families, this is true, and if there’s no family members to assist, then that’s where paid babysitting and daycares come in. Nannies are, of course, not a new concept, but they used to be a luxury afforded to the most wealthy families. I think there’s kind of like a cultural script for, like, wealthy families having, like, live in nannies and so somebody who’s there all the time, and they become like a third parent, almost. Whereas when I was a kid, I had a lot of babysitters, but I never had them for very long. So I would have like, one babysitter for maybe six months, and then I get a new babysitter. And so those people weren’t, like, constants in my life. And I never… I had, like, good babysitters, you know, I liked them, but it never felt like those people were like, had I had a close relationship with them? And obviously those relationships are complicated by the fact that they’re being paid to take care of you, and so that kind of dictates how they treat you, how they view your relationship. I think there’s, you know, a lot more… in both ways, there’s a lot more stakes if you’re being paid, because if you’re depending on your livelihood for this job, then, like, you have incentive to do well. But also that means that maybe you don’t have the same, like, care for that child that you would if they were somebody who you, you know, was your neighbor or your niece or your nephew. So I just thought that was like an interesting thing that I’d never even thought about. Like babysitters are kind of a cultural oddity in some ways, where in other cultures, because multi-generational homes and communities are more tight knit, like those two things are much more common, there’s just less of a need for babysitters, for paid babysitters. So yeah, I thought that was interesting.

Lily: Yeah, and coming from my perspective, I have experienced babysitting and nannying children, and it’s a very interesting dynamic, because a lot of times the parents are actually home, and you’re kind of there to give the children extra attention and to help them, but that kind of leads into parenting styles, which I wanted to talk about. But, parenting styles are very interesting, because how does a nanny parent the kids? How does a babysitter parent the kids? A lot of times, babysitters are young. They’re usually women, but they can be a lot of different people, and they’re usually like 14, like I was 14 when I was babysitting, and I don’t really understand parenting that well. So how does that affect children growing up? And when I was a nanny, I was with them constantly during the day, because the mother had to work, which kind of goes back to this capitalistic ideal that parents are constantly working. So a lot of times the parenting styles that these children are having interactions with are not even from their parents, and so that kind of puts in, that kind of shifts us to parenting styles, and how do parenting styles interact with culture? So, I wanted to go over the four main parenting styles according to psychological research, and I wanted to put a caveat that these are obviously through the biased lens of our culture, and kind of like the norm, the normative culture of the US. So take it with a grain of salt. But, so we have authoritarian which is high demand and low support. So this is kind of more strict, a lot of rules, a lot of expectations, very like, there’s a boundary between the parent and the child there. It’s like, I tell you what to do, and you listen and you respect that. And there’s not a lot of room for flexibility there. And then there’s authoritative, which is a little bit less than authoritarian. It’s high demand, high support. So they have these high demands. They are pretty strict, but they’re very supportive, they’re nurturing, they’re comforting. There is more of that flexibility to have those emotions and be more expressive, and it’s less strict. And then there’s permissive parenting, which is low demand, high support. So this is very nurturing parents. They are very interactive, but they have low demands. They don’t have a lot of rules, they don’t have a lot of strict behaviors. There’s not a lot of strict guidelines. And then you have neglectful parenting, which is low demand, low support, so this is oftentimes very absent parents who… they don’t show a lot of support, they might be cold, but they also don’t have a lot of expectations. So there’s not a lot of rules, there’s not a lot of guidance. It’s kind of just, they’re more avoidant in your life. And what I find really interesting is that these parenting styles are very connected to culture, and they’re very connected to attachment theory, because attachment theory is how children are learned to attach to their parents or their caregivers when they’re young, and this is how they learn how to be people, how to trust people, how to be citizens in society and interact with other people. And there’s avoidant, anxious, and secure and based on what style your parent uses to parent you, that can really affect how your attachment style comes out. But not only your attachment style, but also the culture that you grow up in, and how that is reflected through that culture. So I also wanted to touch on the Harlow experiment. This is a very famous psychological experiment. It’s with monkeys, and it gives two wire monkeys… So there’s a monkey with fur: It’s like contact comfort, so it has like a very soft cloth. And then there’s a monkey that gives food, but it’s only wire. So you put these monkeys in this area, and you see which one they gravitate towards. And most of the time, almost 99% of the time, they are gravitated towards the monkey with contact comfort instead of food. So it shows that when it comes to attachment styles and parenting, there’s so much nuance in the psychology of how children adapt, but this idea of contact comfort is really common, because that is just being there for your child and just having that interaction is really important. So I wanted to also go into the cultural side of things. And we talked about this a lot in culture and parenting, it looks very different. And I wanted to look at these cultural nuances through the lens of this authoritarian, authoritative, neglectful, secure, anxious attachment style, how they all kind of mix together, because there’s so much nuance. And I wanted to say, like, how have you seen culture? Like, do you see other parenting styles in different cultures?

Anna: Definitely, like, um, there’s one example. I think I’ve seen this on social media a little bit. We were talking about this earlier, but of how, in some Nordic cultures, particularly in Sweden, babies are left outside in the winter, and it’s thought to strengthen their immune system. And so that’s like a very common cultural practice in Sweden. It’s not questioned. It’s not considered dangerous at all. But hearing that as a person in America, like, I’m like, why would you do that to your baby? That sounds dangerous, like, aren’t they gonna get cold? Why are you leaving them alone? So yeah, there’s a lot of nuance there, and I think people don’t really recognize how much that… those cultural differences breed greater cultural differences, you know, as adults.

Lily: Yeah, and an example that tags onto that: there was a couple that… a Danish parent was in New York, and they were arrested for leaving their baby outside in the cold when they were eating. But that’s a very common practice in Denmark and Scandinavia, where you leave your young outside because it helps their immune system, because they nap in the cold, and then you leave them alone, and then it helps them. And in America, we can see that as, oh, that’s neglectful parenting. That’s bad parenting. But to them, they could see it as authoritative parenting, or ‘I’m being super supportive and helping my child with their health’. So, I think it’s cool to look at, like, these parenting styles and, like, these different lenses of these cultural layers and then these psychological layers and how they all intertwine. And, there’s some really cool examples, like in Argentina, kids stay up a lot later at night. And I know for us, like, at least for me, I had a bedtime. It was very strict. It was like, you go to sleep, and that’s kind of how it is.

Anna: Yeah. 

Lily: But another culture is like, kids could just stay up and like, to them, it has nothing to do with their parenting style or how behaving that kid is. It’s just part of their culture.

Anna: I also had a strict bedtime. It was 8:00, for much of my childhood.

Lily: I was 7:30, yeah.

Anna: Yeah. And then it was always like, a fun thing when you like, on your birthday. Or whatever. Like, your ninth birthday, and your dad’s like, “You can stay up till 8:30 now” and you’re like, “Oooh, yeah.”

Lily: And then, like, going to bed at night. My parents were so strict about, like, if you’re not in bed and ready by this time, then there will be, like, consequences and like, it’s interesting how, in other cultures, they wouldn’t even think of that. They’re like, ‘Oh, that’s not even something we care about’. And another cool example that I found is in Vietnam, they are very, very intentional with their potty training for their children, and they actually use a very famous psychological tactic of cues and responses. So when children start peeing, when they’re babies, they’ll whistle, so they will associate peeing with whistling. So then, whenever they hear a whistle, they pee, so it helps them learn how to potty train. And a lot of babies are actually potty trained by nine months, and they’re out of diapers at nine months in Vietnam, and I remember I was praised for potty training myself at like two or three, and to me that, like, to my family, that was like a big deal. But in Vietnam, like, it’s very common to be out of diapers before you’re one.

Anna: Wow.

Lily: Interesting how there’s, like, different parenting styles, but not only with that, there’s different expectations for your children and how your children can succeed in these certain areas.

Anna: And like, what is seen as successful, like, in the US, I feel like there’s like, what is seen as being successful is being able to, like, kind of cope on your own. Like, there’s a huge at least when, I think, when we were kids, and maybe a little bit before the, like, cry it out method was definitely in play in a lot of people’s, like, childhoods. Like, if you are having a fit, if you’re crying, the like, predominant idea is that the parent should not try to comfort the kid, and they should leave them alone and try to make them like, comfort themselves, and that way they’ll learn and so in the future, they won’t have to rely On the parent for comfort, when, actually, I mean, there’s disputed things of this, I don’t know exactly the research when, actually, I think that is what breeds more like anxious attachment styles. 

Lily: Exactly.

Anna: Is because when you are unsure of when you’re going to be able to get that comfort, you learn not to really trust other people in those close relationships, and then you have to, you are forced to become more independent, but that also kind of serves American capitalist culture at… at large, if you are more independent, because that is what makes people money.

Lily: And that’s, even … you can connect that back to parenting styles, too, with some people might see that as neglectful, but they’re like, ‘Oh, you’re not supporting your child’. But some people see that as being very successful for your child in learning these behaviors. And that also connects to this idea I saw in Kenya, where a lot of the moms will avoid looking at their child when they cry or fuss. And this is kind of similar to the cry it out method, where if you give your child attention when they’re doing a bad behavior, and, quote, unquote bad behavior, because a lot of times it’s very neutral. It’s kind of how you see the behavior, and it’s seen as helping your children. And in the US, it’s… there’s a lot of controversy over these kinds of ideas of parenting, like also with the cry out method, you can also think about co-sleeping. People are very passionate about that, because there’s a lot of research out there that it’s very dangerous to co-sleep, but also it’s dangerous to leave your kid in another room, very far away, like the research is very nuanced about that, so it’s interesting how in each parenting style, there’s culture, there’s psychology, there’s research, there’s biology. There’s so many factors in how you parent your children. And at the end of the day, if going back to that Harlow experiment, where, if you’re just there for your kid, and you just hold them and just like, just be there for them, usually like, that’s good. That’s good enough for your children, your child.

Anna: I think that’s a really great point to end our sort of more researched part of this episode on. We are just going to talk a little bit about, like, maybe our experiences with our parents a little bit. We are both about the same age, like I was born in 2002 I don’t know…

Lily: Yeah, 2002. 

Anna: Yeah, so, like, I would say that my parents more subscribed to, like, that, like older, maybe, form of parenting, like, not necessarily cry it out, but like, you know, I was, I was independent from a very young age. Like I… my parents worked, so I had babysitters, and I was also the younger one. I have an older brother, so I felt like he maybe got a little bit more of the brunt of the like, strict parenting, and then by the time it got for me, especially when I was in high school, I feel like my parents were a lot more like chill about stuff than some of my other friend’s parents. And I think that was really interesting, because that resulted in me, I think… because my parents didn’t have these super strict rules placed on me, and like, they were still supportive, but their expectations weren’t, like, high, but they also weren’t expecting me to, like, do anything bad. There was no like, don’t do this or don’t do that. So I was just kind of, like, able to make those decisions for myself and kind of see what I liked and what, like, I wanted to do. And so I found that when compared to my other friends, I engaged in like, less, like, unsafe, quote, unquote behaviors, because I never felt like my parents were, like, restricting me in that way where I feel like a lot of people have this sort of opposite reaction, where their parents are like, don’t do this thing. And so they’re like, obviously, I’m gonna do this thing. I don’t know how you experienced something? 

Lily: Yeah, I had a very similar experience, I would say my parents were somewhere in between authoritative and permissive. They were always very high in support, but their demands would range a lot based on what we were talking about. Like, when it came to school, my parents were like ‘just do what you enjoy, try your best, and that’s what matters’. And I was very lucky in that sense, where I wasn’t very hard on myself. But, I wonder, was that because my parents were less hard on me? Is that a reaction to their parenting style? Because, a lot of children, like you were saying, that have authoritarian parenting styles, like ‘Don’t do this, don’t do that’ maybe become more rebellious, and maybe they act out and they don’t trust their parents as much. And then you also have people who are in more permissive or authoritarian parenting styles, where their parents are a lot more easy going or more open and kind of more fluid with their parenting style… usually those kids end up being a lot more strict on themselves.

Anna: Yeah.

Lily: So it’s cool to see, like, that way. And then, you were talking about age order. I’m a middle child, so I kind of got a bit of both worlds, where they were more strict on my sister, the older child, and then on my younger brother, we always talk about how they spoil him, or they’re super easy on him, and I think it’s interesting how, looking at age order, and, like, parenting style, and attachment theory, and everything, it’s just … there’s so many little factors and how you grow up with your parents and your relationship with them. I know, for me, like, I was very open with my parents. We had a very trusting and very open dialogue about a lot of topics that came up. Like, a lot of adult topics. Like, things that came to, like, drinking alcohol or trying out, like, different… like traveling on your own. Like, when I was nineteen, I just told my parents ‘I’m just going to travel to Tanzania’ and they were like ‘That’s awesome! Go for it’. But I know some people that are, like, twenty-three and they have to ask their parent to, like, go to their friend’s house. So it’s very different in, like, the boundaries that you have with your parents and the trust that you have and how open and honest you are. And I think that really goes back to, like, how your parents raised you, your culture, the parenting style, you as a person … it’s just all connected.

Anna: Yeah. Well, I think that’s all that we have for today’s episode. Thank you all for tuning into our show today. Another thanks to our team members and our collaborators with Anthrohub, especially our tech crew. To stay connected, you can find us on instagram @anthro.mp3. You can also find our sources, transcripts of each episode, and more in our Anthrohub show notes. I was one of your hosts today, Anna, joined by our other host…

Lily: Lily. And make sure to tune in next time to further explore the field of anthropology with us again. Thank you, and see you next time!

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